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Political lesson of the day...

posted 11/11/2009 8:40:45 PM |
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  ShadowMale

Capitalism is one man getting rich off another man. Communism is just the opposite.

I don't remember who wrote this, but there is deep meaning in this. At first is seems so simple to those with common sense, but as you look at it, you will find that it means so much more then the obvious.

In the beginning, people hunted and gathered. There was no money, and the only reall needs was food and shelter. There has always been those who were naturally better at somethings then others. Some can build shelter faster and stronger, and some hunt better. Some could make tools for building and weapons for hunting. People would pay for these services with food. Food was the most basic need, and therefore the most valuable resource. This inbalance in what one has, and what one needs is what allowed humans to survive and adapt throughout time.

Some would argue that this is socialism, and is the key to why we should move to socialism. I beg to differ though. In socialism, everyone shares and shares alike. In the case above, one person clearly has all the food (money), and is buying services (from a private individual). This is clearly capitalism, as the one making weapons and tools is capitalizing on the others needs.

Somewhere along the way, a hunter was walking home from a long hard day of hunting, and realized that the people providing services were starting to demand more and more food for their services. This increase in demand angered the hunter, and he vowed to fundamentally change the way the system worked. At the next tribal meeting he raised the idea of everyone sharing equally, so that no man would want what another man had, because all men would have the same thing. It sounded like a great idea, and they all voted in favor.

Problem is, not all men could hunt as well, and therefore some hunters were doing most of the work, and recieved the same amount of food as the others that didn't work as hard. They decided it wasn't worth working so hard if everyone got the same amount of food anyway. Also, those without experience in making tools would also lag behind in quality and speed. Thus putting more load on those that could make those tools and weapons. However, since the blacksmiths were also required to hunt so that they shared in the work load, they didn't have the extra time to put into the tools. Soon, the tools fell into disrepair, the work moral was low among all workers, and food rations were thinning.

Many years later, someone decided that it would be better to let every man do what he is best at, and therefore making his services more valuable to others. He could then sell these services to those that needed them, and then turn around and buy services from those people. This form of sharing services through currency exchange would help those who were motivated to excel.

Though this is an imaginary scenerio, it is based on history, and illistrates how social ideas shape how we work and live.

In reality, neither system can ever be free of corruption, because some people will always want a free ride. It is my opinion, however, that communism encourages free rides in principle, and forced labor reduces liberty, and therefore the pursuit of happyness.

Many people agree with this concept, and then turn around and support blantantly socialistic ideas. Why? What is it about the human psych that makes us so wishy washy?

I think many people see some socialist countries that are doing well, and they think, well why can't we have that? But what they don't see, is that those countries aren't (1) pure socialist, and (2) they do have their fair of problems. If they didn't have problems, then why are so many of them coming to America, where everyone claims we are doing so bad? Even now in the middle of economic failure, we still have people beating down the doors to get in. Why?

Because here, there is still hope.

And in the middle of all this debate over democrat or republican, capitalist or socialist/communist, left or right, liberal or conservative, I care little about all that.
Personally, I'm rather miffed that no one from my party is ever repersented. The anarchist get no respect in this country damn it!

But seriously, my biggest irritation is to hear about how we need to fundamentally change America. Why? If you didn't like America the way it is, then why the hell are you here? There are many countries to choose from that already have socialism, communism, and many other ism's. Take your pick and point the boat.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to voice your opinion, but when it comes to changing or ignoring the constitution, we must draw a line. My ancestors fought in every war since the revolutionary war to help shape this country, and to help protect it and everything it stood for. If you don't like what is stands for, then why the hell are you here?

Just some random political thoughts from the scary depths of my mind. Feel free to weight in, and if any of it is incoherent, just ignore it, I've been busy, and the lack of sleep and high doses of caffiene might be talking for me.

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Comments:

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lunanegra

Nov 11 @ 8:50PM  
Oh gingersnaps, this might get good..don't let me down. *grabs popcorn*

Just kidding, I dont expect it to get out of hand or anything,lol
Wordsofwit

Nov 11 @ 8:52PM  
Well written and expressed.
ShadowMale

Nov 11 @ 9:02PM  
Thank you Words.

And, considering it is an opinion, and therefore cannot technically be wrong, the worst it can get is if someone else expresses their opinion Luna. And if they somehow do get out of hand, I will politely do what any communist would do, and delete their "propoganda" promptly, and reassure my readers that it was in their best interest. See, isn't communism great?
ynot7769

Nov 11 @ 9:39PM  
but but but what happend to ''there ain't no free lunch!!!!"
lunanegra

Nov 11 @ 9:40PM  
So, let me get this straight...communism is "bad"?
sundance64

Nov 11 @ 9:44PM  
It's an Eastern European proverb..."Capitalism is man exploiting man. Communism is the opposite"

And you're right, on the surface it seems simple. But when you think about it...it's actually propoganda...convincing the populace of the evils of capitalism and the rewards of communism. But when we really look at it...what are they saying? The word exploit means to capitalize...to take advantage. In the sense of capitalism, this is true. Capitalism is taking advantage of opportunities that are present.

The opposite of exploit is waste. To not take advantage.To let opportunities slip by. If this is communism...they can have it.

This is simplistic, I know. Communism, on paper, is a good idea. People, being who and what we are, are not made for this type of life. The only ones who believe it works are the ones who are prospering from it...generally the ones in charge.

Socialism on the other hand, is nothing like communism (contrary to popular belief). Communism is the people own everything equally. Socialism is the government owns everything...period. Communist Russia was not communist. The name said it all. United Soviet SOCIALIST Republic. A republic because each state was represented. But still socialist.

Ok...so what about changes in our own country? Our country has been changing since we first set foot and displaced the locals. Our laws have been written and recinded, changed and re-interpreted. Our constitution has been amended (sic changed) how many times? And how many times have those amendments been rescinded or changed?

The point is...as the face of our nation changes, so will the laws of the land. Whether it be healthcare, marriage or gun-control...these things will change one way or another. Why? Because that's what we do. That's who we are. We are a nation of diverse cultures and opinions. There is no law that can accomodate everyone. However, our founding fathers felt strongly enough to put in writing when penning the Declaration of Independance...that all citizens of this country should be guaranteed certain rights...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

To me this means that while it is our responsibility to pursue our own happiness...if that pursuit if impeded by either laws or by other means, then it is the governments responsibility to correct that. Whether by changing the law regarding the definition of marriage (or keeping their noses out of it) or by regulating healthcare and offering a public option that makes health care affordable to everyone...

That's my buck and a quarter...
somnium

Nov 11 @ 10:11PM  
It does make one wonder, just what the hell goes on in ones mind that would have our country be anything else but what we are! After all, the people in our country, built this country from the ground up with the help from legal immigrants, to be the most powerful country on this planet, this side of the Milky Way galaxy- ever!

We didn't get this way because it was best thought to "spread the wealth" around or to meet out collective farms by the government for "the good of all" (meaning for the ruling government itself as a whole- in their mines) or someone thinking that a 1000 year reign of controlling the world, is the way to go! Our country was built by people who love this country and to have a few who would and are, abusing our Constitution or radicals who would and are, trying to transform our country into any one of the entities mentioned above, is despicable!

It has been shown time and again, that socialism, communism or fascism- doesn't work! You need only see what the conditions for the citizens of countries that practice the types of governmental controls mentioned, are up against, to understand that an oppressed society doesn't accomplish much, except for grief- which as ShadowMale indicatesand in my mind, is just one of several reasons why people from other oppressed countries, risk their lives to move to th U.S.A.! What does that tell you???

If you look at tribes in Africa and New Guinea, you see what amounts to 'town hall meetings', where they 'air' out their differences and problems and come up with solutions, for the good of the whole! Same was true for the Native Americans back when, in our country! This is why I have nothing but total disdain for politics in general and for our politicians (all of them) in particular!

Leave us the fuck alone guys- we the citizens of our country (not yours) are quite adept at handling our own affairs, thank you very much! Butt out and we'll do just fine and that includes letting the markets weed out the weak from the strong!!!

So, for the people who would wish our country to be anything else than what it is- far as I know, it's still a free country- you're welcome to leave any time you want! So, how about practicing your freedom and leave!

'nuff said!



sundance64

Nov 11 @ 10:30PM  
Somnium...I'd ask you...who is "we"? Who decides what is best for an entire nation? Who has the right to say "If you don't like it find someplace else to live"?

No...now I'm not picking a fight. I'm an adult, and this is a topic which is of great interest to me.

I hear this all the time...mostly from right-wing conservatives. Our country was founded on these principles...is run on those values...and it works.

Not always...not for everyone.

There are laws in this country that only affect a select few...either adversely or favorably. The rest of the population is not affected at all...or at least minimally.

Too many people are under the impression that socialism is not a part of our country. It is. There are several public sectors that are controlled by the government...that if were privatized would be as out of control as the current health care industry is. The thing is...the government does not want to take over and socialize health care...they only want to regulate it and make it more affordable. And for some this is a bad thing?

I am not a socialist. I fully believe the government is too big. However, our government has a responsibility to ensure the people who elected it are taken care of.
somnium

Nov 11 @ 11:00PM  
who is "we"? Who decides what is best for an entire nation? Who has the right to say "If you don't like it find someplace else to live"?

The "we" is a generalization of the citizens in our country! Everyone has a right to suggest (or say or tell- however one wants to put it) to someone (especially someone engaged in an activity that may have an adverse affect on our way of life) that if they don't like our way of life, then they can leave! At least they have the right to do so from here! Some countries, they don't have that right, among others!

I hear this all the time...mostly from right-wing conservatives.

I'ts not my style to pick a fight- so no problem there! I would suggest tho- that as you said "mostly from right-wing conservatives" that the key word is: "mostly" in that, it isn't just them but some left wing liberals too! Which is why I prefer to say "citizens of our country" so as not to 'politicize' a given subject, having to do with what affects the population as a whole! Soon as that happens, that's when the division creeps in and little gets discussed IMO!

The rest of your comment, I agree with!

ShadowMale

Nov 11 @ 11:46PM  
I find many that truely believe that their opinion is the only one that can be right. Right wing and left wing alike, they are both guilty of the very problem our forefathers tried to avoid. The division of the people into parties is not an official function of the government, at least in the beginning.

Originally, The president was elected, and the person with that came in second was vice president. That meant the country was run by the two most popular people, repersenting the two majority ideals, giving balance to the system.

George Washington warned that the creation of parties in the political system would only serve to divide the nation. Never has that been more realized than today. The word indivisable in the Pledge of Allegiance has seemingly lost all meaning.

Also, Thomas Jefferson said, When the government fears the people there is democracy, but when the people fear the government there is tyranny. In very simple terms, and as provided in the Constitution of the United States of America:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

That very clearly states that anything not in the Constitution is outside the realm of federal government control. The specific reason for this is to limit the powers so that no one person can ever have absolute control. Unfortunately, to many people actually believe our government knows what is best for us, and would prefer they just handle everything for us. They seem to have no idea just how bad an idea that is.

And yes, there is socialism in every system. But by deffinition, you can find a little of every ism in every system. There are capilalist, social, and many other ideas applied to all things in life just about.

The important thing to remember about our system is that it is a republic. And by deffinition, in a republic, the people choose how to do themselves in, even if it is through a proxy(senate). Remove the right of the people to choose, and you have broken the republic. Ask Rome how that worked out for them.

lkg4action

Nov 12 @ 3:26AM  
This subject touches my heart as I believe that with capitalism a man women or child can rise from poverty if they have the smarts and the drive to become rich famous or pretty much anything that they want. That in it's self is amazing! How ever with communism there must be a governing class that has to in order to maintain power keep most in poverty and afford them only that which serves the state or the rulling class! The whole workings of communism or socialism is that the many serve the few! The key word being serve or service as in community service! When given the opportunity to be free and to prosper most will as individuals help each other and grow a good community but when the individual can no longer live freely and the goverment chooses who and how he will help then he no longer can help anyone! This is just the destruction of who we have become and the ruination of our communities and our families as our childrens futures are no longer in our hands! Just a thought!
JustAnAvatar

Nov 12 @ 6:26AM  
I think many people see some socialist countries that are doing well, and they think, well why can't we have that? But what they don't see, is that those countries aren't (1) pure socialist, and (2) they do have their fair of problems.

I think you inadvertently hit on the problem with your view in this comment. No country in the world, including the United States, is purely socialist and purely capitalist. The reason for that is obvious. The world learned many times over that pure, unrestrained capitalism doesn't work well, just as it learned more recently that total abolition of free markets also doesn't work very well.

The world today is more complicated than that. The United States in 1789 was a small, agrarian economy. There were no giant corporations. Banking was still a relatively new enterprise. Most people were farmers. Still, even then it was recognized that the government played a necessary role in the economy.

A national bank was established. The government undertook to build roads, canals, and later on, provided assistance in building the railroad infrastructure. It built a public school system and established universal free education. It established affordable public universities, while still allowing the more expensive private universities to exist.

A lot of people today spout a version of capitalism that has never existed. A graduated income tax does not make America a communist country. Even Adam Smith, the man who first described socialism in his book "The Wealth of Nations" said that the wealthy should pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than others. Regulating business to prevent it from engaging in predatory practices is not the death of capitalism. Telling electric companies that they cannot charge whatever they choose for power is not socialism. Establishing free public schools is not socialism. And assuring that citizens have access to health care when they are sick does not result in the US no longer being a capitalist country.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to voice your opinion, but when it comes to changing or ignoring the constitution, we must draw a line.

Well, consider this. The Constitution specifically permitted slavery. Half of the US had an economy that was predicated upon slave labor. A war was fought, the constitution was changed. Most Americans are very thankful that they changed the constitution in that regard.
JustAnAvatar

Nov 12 @ 6:29AM  
Even Adam Smith, the man who first described socialism in his book "The Wealth of Nations" said that the wealthy should pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than others.

Brain fart alert - Adam Smith first described capitalism, not socialism, in his book "The Wealth of Nations."
JustAnAvatar

Nov 12 @ 7:17AM  
Everyone has a right to suggest (or say or tell- however one wants to put it) to someone (especially someone engaged in an activity that may have an adverse affect on our way of life) that if they don't like our way of life, then they can leave!

Of course you have a right to say that. But I would argue that it's a fundamentally un-American sentiment. In America, if you are a citizen and you don't like some aspect of our way of life, you don't have to leave.

Instead, you have the right to speak out, to run for office, to campaign for someone who proposes policies you agree with, and work to change the law to your liking. And if the proposed changes violate the constitution, we have a Supreme Court that can, and routinely does, strike down unconstitutional laws. If you need an example, just last year the Supreme Court struck down the ban on handguns in the District of Columbia.
somnium

Nov 12 @ 10:12AM  
Of course you have a right to say that. But I would argue that it's a fundamentally un-American sentiment. In America, if you are a citizen and you don't like some aspect of our way of life, you don't have to leave.

I would argue that perhaps before 9/11 or even before that, when an attempt was made to bring down one of the WTC buildings in 1993, I would then agree with your statement. The "sentiment" IMO, has changed since then!

I would also like to state that what I said regarding having the right to suggest to someone, if they are against our way of life, that they have the right to leave, means just that- leave; because they become part of the problem and not the solution! If I feel someone has destructive tendencies towards our country's property and/or it's citizens, I'm trying to protect my country in my own minuscule way, of enlightening said person, on the options they have! That to me, is not being un-American!

Of course they have a right to live here legally, IF they are a citizen or here on a visa! But if they are not here legally (and I should have made this part of my comment(s) above) and they are against our way of life- then please do leave! Even being here illegally, they have a right to leave! Legal citizen? You even have more of a right to leave, if you wish harm on our country- I would be more than happy to assist anyone, with anti-American view points, to leave! I'll even drive them to the airport!!!


Wordsofwit

Nov 12 @ 10:32AM  
I just want to say that this post and subsequent debate in commentaries for me is like boxing. I enjoy it much more as a spectator sport than as a participant.
ShadowMale

Nov 12 @ 1:12PM  
I find it funny, as some people feel the need to argue that point out that people have freedom to express themselves here.

I think this is fundamentally evident in the fact that we are discussing it in the first place. In China, they are known to block sites like Google because they display anti-China sites or information that the government feels the people shouldn't see.

Here, we have freedom of press, but unfortunately our press is now run by the two political extremes. Division.

It is their purpose to divide us. They know if we stand together, they would never stand a chance. This is an age old tactic from ancient warfare; divide and conquer. The real point of my post wasn't to spark debate on which system was better, but rather point out that both ideals exist to some extent in everything, and that finding balance is the key to success. Without balance, you cannot stand.

Just ask the USSR how totalitarian communism worked for them.
I would give a capitalist example, but to date, that I know of, no one has ever tried a totally capitalist system. Something about releasing all control scares polititians to death.
JustAnAvatar

Nov 12 @ 1:23PM  
If I feel someone has destructive tendencies towards our country's property and/or it's citizens, I'm trying to protect my country in my own minuscule way, of enlightening said person, on the options they have!

Well, duh, of course. If the discussion here is "should people who kill Americans and destroy American property be punished and/or deported," nobody is going to argue with that.

I really didn't think that was what ShadowMale was talking about in his blog. If it was, well, we agree. Murderers and other criminals should indeed face punishment and deportation. Who's going to disagree with that?

JustAnAvatar

Nov 12 @ 1:27PM  
[QUOTE]The real point of my post wasn't to spark debate on which system was better, but rather point out that both ideals exist to some extent in everything, and that finding balance is the key to success. Without balance, you cannot stand.[QUOTE]

When you say that, I assume you mean we need a balance between capitalism and socialism. And if that's what you're saying, we're in agreement.
dmbchick420

Nov 12 @ 1:46PM  
I just want to say that this post and subsequent debate in commentaries for me is like boxing. I enjoy it much more as a spectator sport than as a participant.

I completely agree! And why hasn't anybody given this blog any kudos? I have seen some blogs get millions of kudos that weren't even deserving of any....I don't get that. So here's a kudo
ShadowMale

Nov 12 @ 2:19PM  
Well, duh, of course. If the discussion here is "should people who kill Americans and destroy American property be punished and/or deported," nobody is going to argue with that.

Oddly, many do argue that. If you watch the news you can see how some people feel that deporting people regardless of what they have done is wrong. Look at San Fransisco's safe haven laws. How is that working out for them?

Many times, illegals who commit crimes are not deported. I worked in law enforcement for a while, and during that time I watched the INS/Border Patrol change it's policies on deporting illegals. They informed us to treat the illegals like any other citizen. Problem is, they AREN'T any other citizen.

I have nothing against immigrants. But there are legal ways to get in. Many argue that it takes to long to get in legally. Well that tells you something doesn't it. People are beating our doors down to get in. The long wait is a good thing in my opinion. If we let that many people in all at once, life would suck for everyone. We already had job losses for several years, and these idiots think that they deserve to come in and take what little is left? Common sense should tell you that doesn't add up.

When you say that, I assume you mean we need a balance between capitalism and socialism. And if that's what you're saying, we're in agreement.

Balance is everything. In ancient Japan, everything was focused on finding one's Ki. Finding your center was the balance that helped you succeed. Simplified explanation of finding Ki, but when you peel the onion of mystery, you find that the proverbs of Japan and China aren't psycho babble and martial arts are very much based in the reality of physics. You just have to peel the onion to see it.

If you are pushed, you are thrown off balance. Simple reasoning tells us that if you lean in the direction you are pushed, you will fall. Instinct instructs our body to shift our balance in the opposite direction to counter the push. This centering of our weight keeps us upright. Economy is no different. Governments are no different. Everything must have balance. If it didn't, you will have discovered something scientists have been searching for for centuries. Perpetual motion. It doesn't exist.

When you see trends shifting in the economy, you have to adjust to maintain a balance. This is why the federal reserve changes interest rates. This is why oil goes up and down in price. However, as mentioned above, when you move in the same direction, you lose balance. This is what is happening now, with oil companies overcorrecting in a bad market, among other things. You can't just raise the prices and expect to make money without someone suffering. Likewise, you can't spend your way out of debt.

No matter how they try to sell it, anyone with any intelligence should know that when the government spends money, it is YOU that is spending money. Do people really think that the governement some how prints money and it means something? There are people that truely have no clue that everytime they print a dollar without adding gold to back it up, every other dollar loses value. If every dollar loses value, and we then turn around and spend those new dollars, then we are even further reducing the value of the dollar.

Seems I learned in math class a long time ago that subtracting two negatives does not equal a positive, and never will.

No I said all that to get to this. It doesn't matter what political or economic system you have, if you don't have income. The people can pass the buck back and forth inside the country all they want, but it isn't helping anything if the country as a whole is in the negative. You can either choose to make some people rich and others not, or you can attempt to spread it around (in an ideal system) and hope there is enough left to go around. Problem is, once it all gets spread out, you no longer have flow, and any accountant can tell you the economy will stagnate without flow, and all the money will be worthless. Back to trading food for services at that point. Anyone remember the cavemen? Does that sound like progress?

Of course, it you let some get rich, others will suffer. The answer to this problem isn't to radically alter the system you had in place that worked for 200 years, but rather go back to using it the way it was when it DID work. And it DID work. People were happy and successful in this country for a long time, and then suddenly some idiots got jealous that someone had more, and felt like they should have a peice of it without actually having to do the work. Lazy bums are the pitfall of any socioecomic system, and generally not the system itself.

To make a long story short, by sending all our manufacturing to China, we no longer have a product to sell. All we do is buy. If spending money would make us rich, we'd own the world. Our chief export litterally is the dollar. And THAT is why our economy is crashing. No amount of free healthcare will ever change that. No amount of socialism, or capitalism will change that.

Why are all these companies doing this? Taxes. The government taxes the companies on what they make here, what they make in other countries, and tax it again if they send it back to the US, and now they want to tax it even if they don't. Where is the motivation. Remember motivation? Until we start encouraging our companies to be more pro-US, it will not matter what system we use.

The forefathers left their countries to found this country because of unfair and high taxation. Why is it now considered anti-American to protest unfair and high taxes? It is damn well American, we invented it! Anyone that says otherwise is anti-American.
ShadowMale

Nov 12 @ 2:22PM  
So here's a kudo

Awww....

And here I was willing to work for free. Thanks for the kudo dmb.
lunanegra

Nov 12 @ 2:34PM  
I completely agree! And why hasn't anybody given this blog any kudos? I have seen some blogs get millions of kudos that weren't even deserving of any....I don't get that

True. I'm on board with a kudo as well, because I feel I'm getting something out of this. This is a better civics and Am. Gov't lesson than I ever couldve gotten in HS,lol
JustAnAvatar

Nov 12 @ 5:47PM  
"Well, duh, of course. If the discussion here is "should people who kill Americans and destroy American property be punished and/or deported," nobody is going to argue with that."

Oddly, many do argue that. If you watch the news you can see how some people feel that deporting people regardless of what they have done is wrong. Look at San Fransisco's safe haven laws. How is that working out for them

I don't agree with safe haven for illegal aliens but to equate San Francisco's policy of not helping to deport illegal aliens as being the same as giving a free pass to murder and destruction is total bullshit.

But I will say this - San Francisco's safe haven law isn't where your anger should be directed. If you don't want illegals here, blame the employers who hire them. We all know of employers who actively seek out illegals so that hey can pay them less than they would have to pay Americans. If it weren't for that, we wouldn't have milliions of illegals here.

Those employers are traitors to their country and should be branded as such.
JustAnAvatar

Nov 12 @ 6:10PM  
The forefathers left their countries to found this country because of unfair and high taxation. Why is it now considered anti-American to protest unfair and high taxes? It is damn well American, we invented it! Anyone that says otherwise is anti-American.

Who is saying it's anti-American to protest taxes? For shit's sake, it happens every day, and nobody says it's anti-American.

Sorry, I'm not buying that at all. I watch and read news and opinion from a large variety of sources. I have never once read (except in your blog) of anyone claiming that protesting against taxes is anti-American.

Creating straw men so that you can knock them down might make your argument sound better, but it doesn't promote honest discussion.
sundance64

Nov 12 @ 6:37PM  
First of all...our forefathers declared independence from England not because of unfair or high taxes, but because of "taxation without representation". They were being levied with taxes without being given any say on how those taxes were spent, who had to pay them or how much each had to pay. The rich got richer, and the poor starved. This was not happening while they were in England (most of our forefathers were born right here)...it was happening while America was still an English colony.

Second...any person voicing an opinion, whether it be about immigration or taxes or the price of tea in China...is not un-American. We are able to voice our opinions in this country as we see fit...up to a point. That point comes when a citizen of this country tells another citizen of this country to get the hell out if they don't like it here. That is infringing on another person's right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". Yes you have the right to feel that way...you even have the right to say it. But to insist to another person that they leave because they don't like certain laws, or cultures or whatever...is wrong.

Somnium, in answer to your comment (which was in answer to mine...lol)...my words were based on my own personal experience. I live in the south...in the reddest county in this state. I believe my husband and I are 2/3 of the democratic population in this county...the third being the president of the DNC of Yadkin county.( Yes...I believe his wife is a Republican...but that's another story)

I try not to make general statements...and I wasn't referring to the entire Republican party. Only the ones I've spoken to personally. That doesn't even include the ones I hear on the radio or television!

Also, I agree...Socialism does not work...at least not here. Also, I believe that the States need to be given back the sovereignty they had before the civil war, that they are guaranteed by the constitution. Believe it or not...this is happening slowly but surely.

As far as Socialist countries that are doing "well"...which countries might these be? If we are talking about England or France or Canada...all of whom have socialized medicine...none of these countries are socialist countries. The government runs the healthcare system. It doesn't own the car companies, it doesn't run the banks. And if you think our government runs the banks...think again. The Federal Reserve is NOT federal. It is a privately owned institution that is by the way...illegal.

ShadowMale

Nov 12 @ 6:49PM  
But I will say this - San Francisco's safe haven law isn't where your anger should be directed. If you don't want illegals here, blame the employers who hire them. We all know of employers who actively seek out illegals so that hey can pay them less than they would have to pay Americans. If it weren't for that, we wouldn't have milliions of illegals here.

Who said I was directing anger anywhere? I merely used it as an example. There are many examples but I shouldn't have to list the thousands to make a point. By singling out my one example and attempting to make an argument about it, you have aligned yourself at the edge of propogandaism.

Who is saying it's anti-American to protest taxes? For shit's sake, it happens every day, and nobody says it's anti-American.

It does happen everyday. Everyday since taxes began. We weren't the first to give people the freedom to speak out about it either.

Sorry, I'm not buying that at all. I watch and read news and opinion from a large variety of sources. I have never once read (except in your blog) of anyone claiming that protesting against taxes is anti-American.
Well I'm sorry you are blind then. Maybe you should pay attention to NBC and CNN, where anyone that says anything against anything that democrats do, is obviously just a right wing extremist determined to impede progress.

I predict your response will be that right wingers said the same about the left during the Bush administration. Yes, they did. However, living in the past will not help you move through the present to the future. Those comments where either handled or not handled then, and it's time to stop harking on what the past presidents have done, and start focusing on what the current one IS doing.

Creating straw men so that you can knock them down might make your argument sound better, but it doesn't promote honest discussion.

I don't need straw men, I have you, and people like you that insist on trying to convince an educated audience that no one has ever called the tea party people anti-American.

You're welcome to come share an opinion on here if you like Avatar, but don't you start attacking me because you don't like what you hear.

This country has freedom of speach so long as what you say doesn't disturb the peace and liberty of those around you. Once you disturb my peace and liberty, you will learn that my post is not a free country. The wand will take you out with ease. Tread lightly in my territory.
JustAnAvatar

Nov 12 @ 6:58PM  
I predict your response will be that right wingers said the same about the left during the Bush administration. Yes, they did. However, living in the past will not help you move through the present to the future. Those comments where either handled or not handled then, and it's time to stop harking on what the past presidents have done, and start focusing on what the current one IS doing.

None of my posts have said anything about Democrats and Republicans. This is what I was saying about creating straw men.

ShadowMale

Nov 12 @ 7:17PM  
First of all...our forefathers declared independence from England not because of unfair or high taxes, but because of "taxation without representation". They were being levied with taxes without being given any say on how those taxes were spent, who had to pay them or how much each had to pay.
Isn't that unfair?

The rich got richer, and the poor starved.

Much like the arguement they are claiming now.

This was not happening while they were in England (most of our forefathers were born right here)...it was happening while America was still an English colony.
A lot of our forefathers were born here, and many more weren't. The one thing they all shared in common was a desire to be heard. This was not possible in England and most countries in that region at that time. Many more came here after the war started, and after it ended. Many of these can also be considered forefathers as they helped shape this country. Why fight over petty details that matter little?


Second...any person voicing an opinion, whether it be about immigration or taxes or the price of tea in China...is not un-American. We are able to voice our opinions in this country as we see fit...up to a point.
That is what I said.

That point comes when a citizen of this country tells another citizen of this country to get the hell out if they don't like it here

While it might be rude, it is still your right. However, it is also that persons right to stay if they wish. Simply telling one to leave is the same as telling someone to shut up. There is no law against it, until you physically try to make them.

That is infringing on another person's right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". Yes you have the right to feel that way...you even have the right to say it. But to insist to another person that they leave because they don't like certain laws, or cultures or whatever...is wrong.
Depends on the way it is said I suppose, but I never said I would kill anyone for not doing as I say. LOL. People are free to do as they like, to a point.

Somnium, in answer to your comment (which was in answer to mine...lol)...my words were based on my own personal experience. I live in the south...in the reddest county in this state. I believe my husband and I are 2/3 of the democratic population in this county...the third being the president of the DNC of Yadkin county.( Yes...I believe his wife is a Republican...but that's another story)

I try not to make general statements...and I wasn't referring to the entire Republican party. Only the ones I've spoken to personally. That doesn't even include the ones I hear on the radio or television!

Also, I agree...Socialism does not work...at least not here. Also, I believe that the States need to be given back the sovereignty they had before the civil war, that they are guaranteed by the constitution. Believe it or not...this is happening slowly but surely.

As far as Socialist countries that are doing "well"...which countries might these be? If we are talking about England or France or Canada...all of whom have socialized medicine...none of these countries are socialist countries.

I never said anything about England, France or Canada. I also never said anything about being purely socialist. As I recall, I said all governments use elements of each system. Even our own.

The government runs the healthcare system. It doesn't own the car companies, it doesn't run the banks. And if you think our government runs the banks...think again.

If you seriously beleive that if it isn't on paper that it isn't true, then you either have never worked for a government agency, or closed your eyes all day. That is the same as saying there is no such thing as corruption in government. It's a big fat lie and everyone knows it. But that wasn't what this blog was about. I was just expressing an opinion that people fail to look deeper into the meaning of capitalism and communism.

The fact that more then one person has already failed to make that connection confirms my theory.

Capitalism is one man getting rich off another man. Communism is just the opposite.

It wasn't a debate. It was an opinion.

The Federal Reserve is NOT federal. It is a privately owned institution that is by the way...illegal.

Any powers not granted to the federal government by the Constitution is illegal as well. Do you see them stopping because of that little peice of paper?
KitKat25

Nov 12 @ 7:36PM  
I have enjoyed watching this debate unfold. To the parties who played nice and showed some decorum and respect...kudos. It's nice to see adults act like adult while discussing an serious topic. Since it is unrealistic to expect a group of people to all agree on a particular topic, it was refreshing to see it handled in a classy manner within this blog.

ShadowMale: Your points were well presented and I enjoyed reading what you had to say. Your effort was appreciated, as you made me think about things I hadn't thought about in a while. Leaving a greenie at the door.
ShadowMale

Nov 12 @ 7:41PM  
You idiots vote straight down party lines out of the misguided notion that one side or the other is (insert one or more of the following evil, gay, wrong, stupid, clumsy, has craps, will destroy America, loves Muslims, eats rotten fish or can't think)

The post by sundance64 was removed because it added nothing of value, and was poorly written. It was also broadly attacking people in general, and as I stated many times, the post was meant as an opinion, and not a debate.

While I did invite people to weight in with their thoughts, I did not give free reign to verbally assault people in specific or in general.

Keep it civil, or keep it to yourself. The evil post moderator has spoken.

ShadowMale

Nov 12 @ 7:45PM  
ShadowMale: Your points were well presented and I enjoyed reading what you had to say. Your effort was appreciated, as you made me think about things I hadn't thought about in a while. Leaving a greenie at the door.

Aww... thanks.

I simply speak my mind from time to time. Was just a passing thought that turned into a long discussion.I have enjoyed hearing others thoughts.
sundance64

Nov 12 @ 7:50PM  
If you don't want a debate...then it stands to reason you only want people who agree with you. Fine. No one was verbally assaulted, either specific or general. I have the feeling it was the writer...not the writing. Seems like I've heard this before...directed specifically at my husband.

By the way...if you don't want a debate (which is what this discussion was...a civil discussion) you shouldn't have posted a political blog...or at the least you should not bother to invite discussion or opinion. As I stated, this is a topic which is of great interest to me...as it is to my husband. He can only say now that nothing has changed on this site and he has no intention of ever coming back.
ShadowMale

Nov 12 @ 8:00PM  
If you don't want a debate...then it stands to reason you only want people who agree with you. Fine.
I said it wasn't a debate, however, I never stoped anyone from debating. The intention was that it would be a calm discussion about opinions, and not a flaming political war. It was, until your husband showed up... i guess?

No one was verbally assaulted, either specific or general. I have the feeling it was the writer...not the writing. Seems like I've heard this before...directed specifically at my husband.
Under your name, this was posted.
You idiots vote straight down party lines out of the misguided notion that one side or the other is (insert one or more of the following evil, gay, wrong, stupid, clumsy, has craps, will destroy America, loves Muslims, eats rotten fish or can't think)

Looks like a verbal assault to me. There are much more civil ways of expressing an opinion then to go on someone else's blog and call everyone an idiot. You have your own blog. Use it if you like.

By the way...if you don't want a debate (which is what this discussion was...a civil discussion) you shouldn't have posted a political blog...or at the least you should not bother to invite discussion or opinion. As I stated, this is a topic which is of great interest to me...as it is to my husband. He can only say now that nothing has changed on this site and he has no intention of ever coming back.

Well if all he can do is flame on other peoples blog, then good riddence. If you continue to make a big deal out of this, you will cease to exist on my blogs.

Again, keep it civil, or keep it to yourself.
sundance64

Nov 12 @ 8:02PM  
Ok...so he should have said 'you people" or maybe even "the people"?

Why be offended by a poor choice of words? Only someone who actually does that (votes a straight party ticket with no knowledge of who or what they are voting for) would actually be offended by that statement.
JustAnAvatar

Nov 12 @ 8:05PM  
Once you disturb my peace and liberty, you will learn that my post is not a free country. The wand will take you out with ease. Tread lightly in my territory.

I don't think I flamed anyone. But apparently I stepped to close to some line you have drawn and I got the classic "it's my blog and I'll delete you if I don't like what you say."

And you do have that right. I'll just refrain from commenting in your blogs anymore.
ShadowMale

Nov 12 @ 8:11PM  
]Ok...so he should have said 'you people" or maybe even "the people"?
I care why?

Why be offended by a poor choice of words? Only someone who actually does that (votes a straight party ticket with no knowledge of who or what they are voting for) would actually be offended by that statement
.

You failed to see the point. You failed to hear me. You failed to see the point again. And you are still failing to see the point.

My post is not about the evils of corporatism, or about who people vote for.It is about looking deeper into the meaning of the WORDS capitalism and socialism. Beyond that, I shared a little personal opinion about some people coming here and not appreciating what they have when they get here.

The part about how you felt about the meaning of capitalism today was the only part that really pertained to the post. Beyond that, you spent most of your time bashing the people as a majority, and what was left added no value what so ever.

Had I left the post, it would have only invited others into a more heated debate, and that is what I aimed to avoid. Had you read some of the other posts, you would have noticed I had warned against that earlier.

Now, drop it, or be dropped.
ShadowMale

Nov 12 @ 8:16PM  
I don't think I flamed anyone. But apparently I stepped to close to some line you have drawn and I got the classic "it's my blog and I'll delete you if I don't like what you say."

And you do have that right. I'll just refrain from commenting in your blogs anymore.


Your fine Avatar. It was more in jest than anything. However, please don't engage in propogana wars here. Personal opinions are respected, but using my blog to convince people that your word is the ultimate truth is not. Not saying you did, just rather making sure it doesn't end up that way.

I come from the old school. I prefer to stop the flame before it rages out of control.
sundance64

Nov 12 @ 8:23PM  
No one was flaming...no one was assaulting. Again...maybe a poor choice of words, but not directed at anyone here.

The post was a look at capitalism...from a different view point. It was a look...and an opinion of the words capitalism, communism and socialism. All three political ideologies. I don't know what you expected...I care why? you are the one who took offense...or at least accused of flaming based on the words used. I was merely attempting to explain the meaning behind the words.

Look...I saw the blog...it caught my attention because as I said this is a topic that interests me. So I did something I rarely do on this site anymore. I commented. And I asked my husband to read the blog, and he did what he NEVER does on this site. He commented.

Don't look for that to happen again anytime soon. At least not on your blog...regardless of how well written or thought out they may be.
JustAnAvatar

Nov 12 @ 8:27PM  
Personal opinions are respected, but using my blog to convince people that your word is the ultimate truth is not. Not saying you did, just rather making sure it doesn't end up that way.

I see... It was a case of "precrime" - like in the movie Minority Report.
sugarnspice005

Nov 12 @ 8:40PM  
Just leaving a kudo for one of the best blogs I've seen in a long time! Very informative. Thanks Shadow.
StraddleMyNose

Nov 12 @ 9:23PM  
Kudos to both you and Som!
ShadowMale

Nov 13 @ 12:49AM  
Just leaving a kudo for one of the best blogs I've seen in a long time! Very informative. Thanks Shadow.


Kudos to both you and Som!

Well thanks.

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