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posted 2/20/2008 9:14:20 PM |
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  xdcfx

I was watching the news tonight, and it was said that there was a little boy who was born a heroin addict, because his mother was using while she was pregnant, and on welfare she abandoned him when he was born. Doctors didnt believe he would survive, because he was only about 2 pounds, and was thought to have severe brain damage.

Well The doctors, thank god where wrong about him not surviving. He was adopted by a loving family, and is now in grammer school. His eyesight is poor, and he has mobility problems. Walking is a chore, and he suffers from poor motor skill. such as his right hand is hard for him to control. Medical care has costed more than a million dollars so far.

But the kid is smart and knows how to get things done. He has peticianed the government to make it a law, That all welfare recipiants be tested for drugs. If you test positive you must enroll in a drug rehab, and must stay drug free to continue to receieve bennefits. If after that, you test positive again, you will not recieve bennefits. If you refuse to be tested, you not be eligable.

I think this is a great idea, other than the fact that its gonna cost tax payers to have the tests done, but I would rather see my money go to a test, rather than some dope heads bundle.

Let me know what you think.

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Comments:

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featherone

Feb 20 @ 9:22PM  
i think that would be a great idea!
Ewe_Wish

Feb 20 @ 9:24PM  
Its a sound idea except that rehabs being forced on someone is normally not going to help. I know in my area the percentage that stay clean after being in a rehab is about 1 out of every 10 women and 1 out of 7 men....not real good odds.......and a lot of times these people check themselves in voluntarily.....now if people who want to quit have relapses what are the odds of recovery on those that have it forced on them. Most welfare systems are over worked as it is, so who is going to do those random checks, and they would have to be random. And with so many things on the market to flush stuff out of your system........how reliable is this going to be......and some where someone is going to scream that this is a violation of their civil rights and it will stop being put in practise. I have said for years if you can have mandatory drug testing at work, the welfare recipients should also......but sadly there is different rules for them to go by. I hate to see children born of drug addictions but if a woman can have an abortion without anyones permission (and I am for pro-choice) they are never going to make a law about how she takes care of her body when she is pregnant and abusing drugs. How sad that is.

zaralyon

Feb 20 @ 9:26PM  
while it is a wonderful idea and I would support it I have one question. What about the kids that wouldn't be getting benifits? How are they going to get necessary things like food, clothing and houseing? Or are they going to be automatically removed from the home? which is not always a bad thing.
ThePurpleProphet

Feb 20 @ 9:36PM  
What about the drug and alcohol abusers that are not on welfare? That would be income discrimination. I think that welfare recipients should be tested just to see if the monies they recieve are not going in the wrong direction. I also think that some how some way that a drug test could be used to prevent drug and alcohol abusers from being allowed to get pregnant. I know that sound absurd and extreme but how many premature babies do we have to see that could have been normal births before we grow up?
xdcfx

Feb 20 @ 9:39PM  
Ewe I think thats real sad, and unfortunately we as a people, have to stop bitching at some point or another about cival rights to som degree, these rights are violated everyday towards us all in one way or anoher, and there has to come a point where we have to just sit back, and have them violated, because most people use the their rights as a tool in the justice system just to get away with murder. Children are our future, and if we cant protect them from being screwed over like that in life, where does this leave us in the future?
xdcfx

Feb 20 @ 9:43PM  
Very true as well purple, just as how many of these children do we have to find in alley ways, and dumpsters even though there is a law allowing anyone to leave a child in a safe place no questions asked? I realize there has been attemps made, and one that have failed because they always find a hole in the net to get by and do as they will, but what if we did nothing and didnt try?
sugarnspice005

Feb 20 @ 9:45PM  
I think the testing is a great idea..and I also agree with what Ewe says. It's a harsh world out there, no doubt about it. My personal opinion is if a mother can't stop the drug abuse and alcohol abuse...then, yes, for the kids safety, the kids should be removed from the home and put in foster care until mom can get her act together. But..again..that puts a strain on the taxpayers to fund this...and some of us are already taxed to, or, beyond our limit. So now what?
xdcfx

Feb 20 @ 9:50PM  
Oddly enough I dont really have the answer to that but I will tell you this, Something has to be done. usually when a child is reoved from the home, and placed in foster care, it is usually made mandatory the parents pay the state child support. I know this to be true in my state of New Jersey. also known as the Tax & surcharge capital
Ewe_Wish

Feb 20 @ 9:50PM  
Yes but where would it stop..........if the govt.is allowed to violate this persons civil rights pretty soon they will be violating other groups civil rights and pretty soon no one will have any rights...........I agree there is a problem...........I am just saying that it cant be governmentally mandated.........JMO

Purple just a thought here........drug testing to make sure that the welfare monies is not going for drugs.........how you going to stop that same money from going to the casinos........how are you going to make sure that the food stamps are spent on healthy foods instead of the frozen pizzas and pop you see a lot of welfare ppl buying........as for making sure drug users cant get pregnant.........hmmm maybe at the same time we should make those fathers who are behind in child support not allowed to father anymore children.........You cant mandate morals and values .....there will never be laws for that kind of stuff...........and as sad as it is that children are born with problems that are directly in response to the mother being an addict..........there are a lot of children being born of older women too that have MAJOR medical problems.........should we out law that too.............There is a lot of things that go on that may not be right.......and some of it down right horrible but lets see them start taking civil rights away and wonder how many people will think this is the land of the free. Again JMO
sugarnspice005

Feb 20 @ 10:00PM  
Dayna...you make a good point. Morals cannot be governed..that is so true.
xdcfx

Feb 20 @ 10:10PM  
Yes Ewe you do make good points, and I as one dont think the idea of making it a law that men behind on child support to stop having kids as well. They cant pay for the ones they have, and shouldnt be able to make others
Ewe_Wish

Feb 20 @ 10:15PM  
You missed my point tho.........whether a man can afford it or not it is still his right to have sex..........sex can and often does produce pregnancy (unless he is with himself of course lol). So what should that man have a vasectomy because he is behind in his child support........you cant make anyone have any kind of surgery if they dont want to........so how would that law be enforced.........the fact is this if we allowed a law to pass that said we could forcilbly do vasectomies you are opening up the government to force people to have any kind of surgery they want to...........tho i imagine organ donations wouldnt be a problem........but tell me would you want someone to tell you its a law and you have to have a surgery....it all comes down to yours, mine and everyone elses civil rights.......they take one they will eventually take them all.
xdcfx

Feb 20 @ 10:23PM  
No hon, I'm sorry. I didnt miss your point, I just forgot to address it not intentionally. But yes you are right, But I do belive something shoul be done. Maybe not as drastic as operations, but somthing, I dont know what, but I just cannot imagine a family court judge at chilsd support hearing say "Bailif whack his pee pee" not today, not tomorrow.
beefygoblin

Feb 20 @ 10:42PM  
Maybe not the best plan... for instance what of the people with cancer who use pot (and alot of them are on welfare becouse they can no longer work long hours). Plus what of the massive invasion of privacy. People who use drugs and have kids could lose the ability to properly support said kids and so many kids live at or below the welfare line in this country...

This is not an overly well thought out plan.

To top all this off, the largest drug rehab plan (narcotics anonymous) is both religous in nature and shown not to work the majority of the time.So by forcing them to go to it (and this is the program they get forced into the majority of the time- with no other options allowed) you break theyre first ammendment rights and then fucking fail them.

This is no solution to the stable (not actualy growing, sorry to tell you this people) drug problem in this country. A.A. and N.A have failed to have any effect...same goes for Sex Addicts Anonymous.

Read the narcotics anonymous 12 step plan... how many times does it mention god?


1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Ewe_Wish

Feb 20 @ 10:50PM  
(narcotics anonymous) is both religous in nature
Actually Beefy they do use the term God........tho they also will tell you that you do have to chose a Higher Power to turn things over to........not necessarily a God of our understanding..........Many ppl in recovery NA and AA alike choose their home group as their God, some people pick articles such as books, trees, ect.........anything that they accept as a higher power........some thing they can turn their life over too..........some people even use their sponsor..........THere are millions of ppl that NA and AA has helped all over this world, in all religions so dont disregard it as a failure..................I know whereas by I speak I have almost 3 years sober.........and its because of help from AA.
xdcfx

Feb 20 @ 10:53PM  
Yes BG making them go to a drug rehab of that manner does violte the civalrights of those who do not believe in the same god, or any god at all for that matter. But that doesnt mean that they cant ajust for that, and make changes for them people, or even allow the recipiants to choose a plan on thier oun. as long as they areenrolled in a plan than that tests fr drugs. As far as those who are on medical pot, they also have testin fo them people as well. I have a friend of mine in Cal. who gets a script for it. She is given 5 pounds a month, and as I am to understand, she is also tested by her doctor to make sure thats all her intake is for that month, as well as for other drugs.
xdcfx

Feb 20 @ 10:56PM  
Good for you Ewe I think thats great! I love to hear success stories.
beefygoblin

Feb 20 @ 11:00PM  
Ewe_Wish READ THE 12 STEPS IT SAYS PRAY TO GOD!!!! It says worship the higher power. It says you are guided by this higher power. Even a preschool would say "GOD"!!! But they don't not to infer... BECOUSE IT SAYS GOD!!!!

I'ts not like I didn't cut and past right off theyre website.

Also, telling people to pray... thats religion. No way to cut that. It is what it is and thats a violation of rights. You make them captive audiance and then preach at them using my tax money... pure and simple.

beefygoblin

Feb 20 @ 11:04PM  
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Don't tell me thats not religion.

Even if you replaced god with higher power (as some programs have) thats just window dressing. Its still god, its refered to as a he and not mulitiple it says to take the message of this salvation to others... thats religion.
They use the words SPIRITUAL AWAKENING.


I couldn't make this up if I tried.
Ewe_Wish

Feb 20 @ 11:05PM  
Beefy you are taking the 12 steps out of context ..................If you read the Big Book like i have many times...............You would see where Bill W. who started AA said that he was using God because that was who he saw as his higher power but that it was a Higher power of the persons understanding.............but whether you find it religious or not isnt the point.............AA and NA has helped out millions of people stay clean and sober. Besides this is not what the topic of this blog is about...............

xdcfx

Feb 20 @ 11:05PM  
BG but still Ewe made a good point, A higer power is what you make of it really, it could even be a head of lettuce named Fred if you like. Its does say pray, prayer is what you make it as well. I dont have to believe in your god, or any god for that matter, I just have to believe.
xdcfx

Feb 20 @ 11:08PM  
Damn Ewe I hope yo didnt miss your calling, because you shoulld hav been a lawyer. lmao
beefygoblin

Feb 20 @ 11:20PM  
Telling people to pray to a head of lettuce is still telling them to pray!!! Plus the steps still say god and higher power. There is no way to take that out of context. Just none.

It says to spread your spiritual awakening. I shit you not. Thats religion. You can coat it in new age suggary talk all you want, its still a violation of rights.

Prayer is religion. Telling people to believe in a higher power is religion. Doesn't matter if you say they can use a different higher power... its still telling them that they MUST believe. Thats a pure and simple violation of the very spirit of the law as well as the letter.

I can't think of a more offense abbuse of tax money... well exept for the war... but lets just not go there.
Ewe_Wish

Feb 20 @ 11:24PM  
Beefy.............AA and NA is not funded by anyone but themselves......they take absolutely no outside contributions and are not even allowed to take donations of paper plates for a picnic.........they are self sufficient...........NO TAX DOLLARS AT ALL.............its in their traditions and its not allowed to be violated..........your so good to googling...........google the AA traditions and read them yourself........and this is the last comment i am going to make on this you have never had to be there and you will never understand..............

because you shoulld hav been a lawyer.
I would never be a good lawyer cause I dont lie............ BTW something else I was taught in AA honesty..........
beefygoblin

Feb 20 @ 11:27PM  
Oh realy. So when a judge payed for with my tax money tells someone to they must go to a place that tells them to pray.. then my tax money didn't do that?

Plus yes they do take tax money... unlike the aclu...

Its a pure and simple violation.

Its not like I haven't done research on this... it was my debate topic back in highscool.


So... yeah...

Another year I had to do renewable power... that didn't stick as well.


Ewe_Wish

Feb 20 @ 11:29PM  
Beefy...........They have NEVER taking money from anyone.........but since you seem to think you know it all i will just leave you to beleive that. Good night.
xdcfx

Feb 20 @ 11:31PM  
I would never be a good lawyer cause I dont lie............
ROTFLMAO now thats a good one. That one job, other than a weather man, that can be wrong, and lie, and still get paid for it.
xdcfx

Feb 20 @ 11:34PM  
OK I think we have gone off topic anyways.... The blog was NOT about all that it was about making welfare recipiants take drug tests in order to be able to get benefits
beefygoblin

Feb 20 @ 11:41PM  
The law and 12 steps
sundance64

Feb 20 @ 11:55PM  
First the subject of the blog...

As the sister of a heroin addict...rehab alone doesn't work. First, like Ewe said...the addict has to want to stay off drugs. And losing welfare benefits is not an incentive to stay off drugs. Granted...it could weed out addicts using welfare money to get drugs...but then there is the overworked and underpaid system. There isn't enough room in the gov't funded rehab facilities for the people who want to get clean...let alone for people who are forced into rehab. The welfare system needs to be reformed so that people on welfare have to get training for a job...and be actively seeking a job in order to continue to get benefits. Welfare was set up to be a temporary measure...not a permanent solution. Unfortunately, too many babies are born as a direct result of addiction...women selling themselves in exchange for drugs. And while there are plenty of loving families willing to foster and adopt children born into drug addiction, all too often they are lost in the red tape of bureaucracy and just fall thru the cracks. The boy in your story was one of the lucky ones...there were hundreds of thousands before him and there will be many more in the years to come.

Second...off topic
I'm also a recovering alcoholic...just over 10 years. The program of AA is not a religious organization...it does not embrace nor does it endorse any type of organized religion. That said...it is a spiritual program. Yes...there is a difference. Yes, at least where I'm from, they say a prayer at the beginning (the Serenity prayer) and the end (the Lord's prayer) of every meeting. This is to bring peace as well as unity to each meeting. I've known Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Agnostics and even Atheists who have used the program and the 12 steps as they are laid out in the book...and stayed clean. All that is asked is that one believe in a power greater than ones self. I've sponsored others in the program...the only thing I've suggested is that they not have another person as that power...people will always let an alcoholic down giving them a reason to drink again.

I'm not a Big Book thumper...but I do believe the program works. For people who want it...not necessarily for people who need it.
beefygoblin

Feb 21 @ 12:01AM  
Babe if it says one higher power, and you say the lords prayer...and your forced to go by a court... I shouldn't even have to say this. Its not "spiritual" its religion. Besides you can't be spiritual without religion. Its like apocalypse and Armageddon... maybe therye not the same thing... but theyre the same thing...

The percentage of people who stop and don't use again is the same with or without the program.. this doesn't mean it didn't work for you. It just means it doesn't have an overall universal effect.

The religion is pretty clear and the courts often agree with me on this. State courts are slowly turning on it- due to the first ammendment issue. Read the link I provided.

Oh and good god women, your saying christian prayers and talking about higher powers and you don't see the religion?
Ewe_Wish

Feb 21 @ 12:01AM  
Thank you sunny you said it much better than I did.
sundance64

Feb 21 @ 12:03AM  
Sorry for posting again xd...just one more thing for Beefy

I happen to agree with you in that a judge should not 'sentence' someone to AA. In fact... I don't believe a person can be forced to go...however, alot of people do go after a dui or dwi...just to look good before going to court. But that's not how AA works. Yes...they welcome anyone...anyone who has the desire to stop drinking. Most members of AA welcomed the rulings that said a person could not be forced...because alot of those people had no intention of stopping.
sundance64

Feb 21 @ 12:06AM  
The percentage of people who stop and don't use again is the same with or without the program.

Where does that statistic come from? I'd like to see it...

Even most rehab centers use some form of the 12 step program...some with and others without the spiritual aspect. I for one am not a 'religious' person. I do however believe there is a God...and that I'm not It.
xdcfx

Feb 21 @ 12:14AM  
Sorry for posting again xd...

Please post as often as you like dont be sorry that what its all about hon.
xdcfx

Feb 21 @ 12:23AM  
I myself have never gone through this personally, but I would only imagine, that when you are an addict of anything, and hit rock bottom, you kinda feel that whatever works, or what you believe will work, will work. even if you dont believe in a "God" so to speak as a "higher power"
beefygoblin

Feb 21 @ 12:28AM  
From government stats on it. The numbers came out the same... which wasn't the results the they were looking for... it has to do with this whole giving money to religion kick bush is on. He had data compiled in order to push it through the congress... failed and then just overuled them and used an executive order...

This is not to say the program doesn't work for you... it just shows that people also change without it. Whatever the varied methods be. Hard to say... the data on what else worked is not compiled. Wasn't priority.
sundance64

Feb 21 @ 12:38AM  
From government stats on it. The numbers came out the same... which wasn't the results the they were looking for... it has to do with this whole giving money to religion kick bush is on. He had data compiled in order to push it through the congress... failed and then just overuled them and used an executive order...

I was asking where you got the information...an article? A brief? I'd like to read it in it's entirety if you know where I might find it...
beefygoblin

Feb 21 @ 12:44AM  
sundance64 check your email... the dam server is slow today.. this sites email.

sundance64

Feb 21 @ 1:17AM  
Yep...I got it!
canuhelpme258

Feb 21 @ 2:46AM  
This is interesting isn't it... but the first step to recovery is actually wanting to recover.

I can answer the question about the kids.. they'd be removed from the home, is that cruel? Should the kids be left in the care of addicts? Is there such a thing as responsible addicts?

The democrats will shoot it down so as not to harm their constituents, republicans will back it as a morality issue, libertarians will of course bemoan any government spending what so ever..

I think this is a great idea, other than the fact that its gonna cost tax payers to have the tests done, but I would rather see my money go to a test, rather than some dope heads bundle.

Social spending encompasses such a small % of the budget, that it is moot to bring up cost. I'd rather this program funded, rather than more bombs for scary men living in caves...

I'll ponder the moral implications too deep for 2:45am
onehornytoad69

Feb 21 @ 11:12AM  
No answer is Perfect... But someone has to Get the Ball Rolling..and maybe the "Process" with show the Way!!!?
I Say..... Piss'em all...!
If the Mother is on hard drugs(anything harder than Pot).. then she cant take care of the Child from the Start!
My 2 cents!

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