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Sinner?

posted 8/6/2007 7:31:42 PM |
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  sundance64

**I posted this on myspace and 360, and it was ignored...but I know you folks will comment on it!!**

I just started going to Yahoo Q & A...found some interesting questions, and some answers that range from great to greatly uninformed.

One such question was regarding homosexuality and christianity. Can one be both?

First of all, the question to be asked is: What is a Christian? Is it someone who attends church every week? Tithes to the church and performs acts of charity? Is it someone who lives a 'good, clean' life, doesn't drink or smoke or do drugs or use profane language and take the lord's name in vain? Is it someone who waits until they're married to have sex, and then only has sex with the person they are married to?

Or is it, as some denominations believe, only someone who belongs to a certain sect of christianity? Be it Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian...etc.

The answer, according to the New Testament is: None of the above. A Christian is a person who accepts Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Simple...right? Ok, so...can someone who is gay be a Christian? What does the bible say about that? Actually, not a whole lot.

There is one passage in the old testament that refers to homosexuality...most of us have at least heard it, some may have even read it. It basically says that the act of a man laying with another man as if with a woman is an abonimation. However, the actual word used in the Torah was "Toevah"...which means two things, in this context it means "unclean act". Along with eating pork and engaging in intercourse during menstruation. Toevah also is used in the context of idoltary, meaning there were sanctions against idol worship.

Christians for the most part don't follow the laws of Judaism, which is basically what Leviticus is. Christians do however pick and choose certain passages in Leviticus and other books of the old testament when it suits, in order to discourage certain practices or ban certain people from their midst. Being a homosexual may seem distastful to some, but it does not mean a homosexual is a sinner. Homosexuality in and of itself is not a sin. During the time that these laws were written, homosexuality was certainly frowned upon. It promoted disease...if a man had sex with another man and then had sex with a woman...she would probably get some type of bacterial infection. It also wasn't good for the procreation of the race...obviously if two men were only having sex with each other, they weren't doing their part in carrying on the family name!

When you read the old testament and look at the time in which it was written, you see that the people it was written for were living in very hard times. They had to have laws in place that would keep illness and disease at bay, and also increase the population (strength in numbers ...). Mostly Leviticus was written in order to keep the Jewish people separate from the Gentiles, who at that time were mostly polytheists and of course God didn't want his chosen people mixing it up with them.

I know there are translations of the old testament that say homosexuality is a "detestable sin". That is not the original verse. As I said before, the word "Toevah" has several translations. I also know there are several passages in the new testament that do in fact refer to homosexuality as a sin...but look at who wrote those passages. I'm not trying to discredit Paul, but what did Jesus have to say about it? Not a whole lot. He had more important things to think about.

Furthermore, the word Paul used was "para-physin" or unnatural...which could mean against what the natural order of the day was. Does that mean homosexuality is unnatural? Well, that would mean that God made some mistakes. Unless you believe that homosexuals came from Satan, but that would mean Satan has the power of creation and is therefore equal to God?

I'm not trying to bash Christians or Jews, nor am I trying to ram any beliefs down anyone's throat. I'm only hoping that some people will read this and take up the challenge to dispute it, but with well informed and well researched arguments...not just what they've been spoon-fed their entire lives.

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Comments:

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max49

Aug 6 @ 7:47PM  
I think that if it was really disected we would find that there are gay ministers in every religion. Does this mean they aren't christians? It is my belief that as long as you believe in God and all he stands for then is some way you are a christian. I don't really think it matters if you are gay, straight, bisexual or whatever. Being a christian is beleiving in God. That's just my opinion.
plaidskirtluver

Aug 6 @ 7:49PM  
i find that a great many questions in the philosophy and religion sections of yahoo answers are intentional bait. constructed in such a way as to draw specific responses. ;)

i'd suspect that there are as many atheists posting 'ignorant christian' questions and comments as there are ignorant christians ;) read into that all that you want :)

/just have fun doing it :) and don't take me (or yourself) too seriously ;)
casuallylooking

Aug 6 @ 8:08PM  
I believe that being a christian means accepting Jesus as your savior.Asking for forgiveness. Believing in God, and living by the ten commandments.
I believe that just because you love someone the same sex, does not mean God is going to turn His back on you and say I don't love you anymore.
I do however have an ex husband that is an ordained minister who would/does disgree with me.
jezzarae

Aug 6 @ 8:10PM  
Well according to Christian teachings being a christian is more than just believing in God. Even satan believes in god but he sure as hell isnt a christian. Being a christian is supposed to be accepting God as your creator, Jesus as your saviour and following the two great commandments Jesus gave to the disciples. Being repentant when you fail and seeing forgiveness.
What I don't get in it is this........ the two great commandments are. Though shall love the lord your God with all your heart, strength and mind and love your neighbour as yourself. and Though shall have no other Gods before me. According to christian teaching the old law was done away with after Jesus resurrection so where did the Apostle Paul get his info on homosexuality cause Jesus sure didnt preach it.
I was a very devout christian for most of my life but I finally turned away from the 'church' because of the teaching on homosexuality. I find no basis in what Paul preaches and that puts me in direct conflict with the church. I was a youth group leader for 12 years and finally had to leave because I could not teach that homosexuality or masturbation were wrong and sinful.
bentan

Aug 6 @ 8:11PM  
My take is that for every written word there are a myriad of ways to interpret it. And it should come as no surprise that most people tend to interpret things with a self-serving bias, be they in support of homosexuality or not. As Shakespeare once wrote, the Devil may cite Scripture for his own purpose.
SxzeNewMe

Aug 6 @ 8:25PM  
Sunny, what an interesting blog! I'm sorry I didn't see this on 360 - I would have commented...not that what I have to say is all that great.

Christianity is the believe in Jesus Christ and accepting him as one's savior; a belief in God is a given if one is a Christian (so, that's not really part of the definition).

As for homosexuality...it's 100% natural, and I don't believe that God made a mistake; he simply made a variety. He also gave us free will - allowing us to choose for ourselves what is best or right...or not...for ourselves.

Interesting to note: homosexuality always seems to refer to men...Why is it that people get more heated about gay men than women? Why is it more acceptable for women to prefer women? Just a thought...
jezzarae

Aug 6 @ 8:29PM  
You are right Ben the same words can be interpreted in so many ways. Personally I think each person who is interested should read for himself and not allow anyone to interpret for him. For too many years I blindly believed what I was taught then I grew wiser and made my own decisions.
Of course my decisions may damn me but so be it. At least I am being true to myself.



Btw I forgot to say it before Sunny great blog and you got my first kudo of the day for whatever that is worth.
buatbu

Aug 6 @ 8:44PM  
My idea reflects my opinion. I have accepted Jesus as my savior but I still sin. I think Jesus would love the sinner and hate the sin. Sex outside of marriage is considered a sin in the Bible. Lust in the heart is also considered a sin. Thank God I was born being attracted to the opposite sex. I try not to judge people.
DesertSmile

Aug 6 @ 9:03PM  
Having "survived" 12 years of Catholic education I can only say, it was a great education if you eliminated the theology portion.

While I understand the need for mind control of the masses to keep order and harmony I choose to not be a part of organized religion (much to the chagrin of my family) and now refer to myself as a "Cafeteria Catholic"...I pick and choose what I want to believe.

I dislike the term Christian for the implications it presents. If a person believes in the fundamentals of treating others with honestly and with certain moral guidlines you will have lived a good life and be ashamed of nothing.

kozmik_wave

Aug 6 @ 9:40PM  
Does that mean homosexuality is unnatural? Well, that would mean that God made some mistakes

God didn't make the mistakes, people make thier own mind up about who or what to have sex with. We decide on our own and that is what our judgement day will concern...the choices we make in life.

To argue that people are born homosexual is ridiculous unless you also will give the people into beastiality a pass, or pedophiles.

The word "natural" is what it is. Nature. If you believe that nature accepts this practice as normal, (which I do not) then you believe it. We as a species have grown SO FAR away from nature by shielding ourselves from it in every way....wearing cothes, living in climate controlled homes, driving cars, you get the picture....NONE of these things are natural. Humans have become the definition of unnatural and to pretend we have the slightest understanding of it is ludicrous.

To attempt to understand nature, look at the other species that still live within and in harmony with it. Do deer partner up with the same sex for pleasure? How about birds? Please don't include domesticated creatures as we have bastardized their species by dominating them. It's worth some thought and research. Through my own research I have not found anything natural about homosexuality.

kozmik_wave

Aug 6 @ 10:10PM  
Amending my previous post...

Using birds was a poor example...animals living in the wild without human interference that copulate like we do are the ones that matter...wolves, bears, buffalo, coyote...etc...
oralsucker247

Aug 6 @ 11:09PM  
I am not a christian, nor a believer in the Bible.
BUT...if you believe in the Bible, it clearly states homosexuality (refered to as "Sodomites" in the Bible) is an abomination!

I do not agree with homosexuality, and have always said it is UN natural.

Why?

Can two men have a child together (outside of adoption)?
NOPE!

Can two women?
NOPE!

I rest my case!

ladybootscooter

Aug 6 @ 11:51PM  
I look at it this way, I have a cousin that is a lesbian and a gay male cousin, both are happy and very deeply in love with their life partners whom they have been with for upwards of 20 yrs each! Unusual in a hetero relationship even these days. Love is so difficult to find in this world why should it matter that the person you find it with is the same sex? I can say they are both extremely monogamous and faithful to their life partners. So are they sinning any more than the married person that strays outside the marriage bed? Somehow I don't think so!
frankbarks

Aug 7 @ 8:36AM  
Going by the general message I get from the Bible, it is an abomination and like all such "sin', final judgement isnt a human task. Saying you're a Christian is far far different from being one. I view killing for any reason besides immediate self defense or the defense of a brother or sister (anyone) as a sin. There's millions of Christians riding to church in a Mercedes, BMW, or Hummer while their neighbors starve. Clergy and judges rape and smoke pot' while delivering damnation and incarcerating their flock for the same things. Then again, the bible is such an abused and corrupted piece of art, who really takes it seriously? No one does.
sundance64

Aug 7 @ 9:50AM  
What a great discussion!

Kozmik...there have been studies in which certain species have been seen "partnering up" with the same sex. It's happened with wild canines (wolves, coyotes, etc) wild horses and certain birds of prey. No, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

As for the Sodomites...again, you have to look to the original hebrew, greek and latin translations of the book, and see that different words were used in order to translate it to english. If you read about the destruction of the city of Sodom, there is really no reference to 'sodomy', only 'fornication' , but there is reference to Lot giving his daughter(s?) to the citizens of Sodom in order to save the Angels from them. The Sodomites wanted to "know" (which word has been translated several different ways in the bible!) the angels visiting him, but he wouldn't let them and gave his daughter(s) to them instead.

My point is that the bible has been translated and re-translated so many times, it's hard to say what the original meaning was unless you go back to the original language in which it was written and study from there. Of course, with some words especially Hebrew and Aramaic, there are some words that don't translate to english and like those scholars who have already translated, you just have to guess at the original intent.
sundance64

Aug 7 @ 9:52AM  
Oralsucker, you didn't "rest" your case...you simply stated an opinion. See the last line in the blog...
ajblookin

Aug 7 @ 12:29PM  
To directly answer the question "regarding homosexuality and christianity. Can one be both?" The answer is simply yes. To all of you who chose to judge the moral ethics of homosexuals, I would suggest that you leave that to the higher power that is God. As for the title of this blog - we are all sinners. And just for the record, organized religion was created by "man" and by it's shear nature is imperfect and often organized to cater to human needs and not what the Bible states. That's why I am a church of one. The bottom line (no pun intended) is judge not least ye be judged. Or for the non-religious - live and let live. Oh - and just so none of you think that I am pious or a hypocrite for being on this site, I do believe God gave us the gift of life because He loves us and wants us to be happy. I would like to extend that happiness to all of you. And ladies, I would like to extend my "special" happiness to you!
hotwifewfemcuckhold

Aug 7 @ 12:43PM  

Logicly---religions(ALL) are just cults ! Now that folks are upset--Let me explain!!
Religion are basted on blind(unsubstantiated)believes All written by men(not even women let along god!!
Religion is an easy way for a few to control many by way of fear& guilt!!
For instance--It's supposed to be a loveing God but god is on our side when we go to war&kill people!& God gave us everything but we are not allowed to enjoy the things that give the most pleasure(LIKE SEX)!That gives a LOT of control to the religious leaders!!
We know how to be good &kind to our fellow men without religion!
The way religion is set up it encourages us to look down on others as each says we are the right ones&folks who follow another way are (at least) misguided
plaidskirtluver

Aug 7 @ 5:02PM  
well, since no one else took you up on the offer....

academically speaking....

you ask whether or not god made mistakes...well, yes. actually that's obvious from the start of the bible. in fact if you read genesis 6:5 -

he LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

the choice of words in the greek version is even more obvious - god 'repents' that he made man on earth. clearly it was a mistake. s

ok. kinda.

if you read genesis (again, the older greek) god gives adam (and presumably eve...but adam is discussed specifically) intelligence and freewill. and god *asks* adam to perform tasks of management and stewardship. these are not commands but requests in the older texts. so...along with freewill comes choice. choice to obey. choice of naming animals. choice to (ultimately) pick the wrong answer. that's the way free choice works :)

so...if you keep reading....even after adam and eve have f'ed up and eaten the apple, put on some leaves and are running around the garden feeling shame for the first time...god is presented with a choice...kill them like he said he would...or not. god chooses to not kill them. instead he punishes the two...but he also chooses to 'fashion clothes for them'. interesting.

skipping back a bit - and addressing your 'can satan create...' comment - well, satan plays a key role in getting eve to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. while eve ultimately is the one that *acts* and eats the apple...satan *encouraged* and *offered validation* for why she should do this.

so...from this, we can take that:
1. god makes mistakes.
2. satan has influence over matters of personal choice and freewill.
3. god shows compassion for those that make bad choices.



again...this is an academic dissection of the text....not my opinion...not the church's opinion and not dan rather's opinion. just looking at the words and picking them apart :)



now...i'll present you with a philosophical/biological/psychological question. no religion needed.

why does homosexuality exist? that is to ask - what factors lead to one being homosexual?

based on our understanding of human biology and psychology, it should fall into one of the following patterns:

1. it is a naturally occurring gender-form and serves a biological purpose that enhances the survival of the species.
2. it is an aberration - it is a flaw in the genetic code and does not serve a purpose.
3. it is a mutation that will, someday, be critical in advancement of the species.
4. it is a remnant of an earlier time in our history - and once served a biological purpose - but no longer does (an anatomic example of this is our appendix)
4. it is a disease or illness that is brought on by external factors
5. it is a mental and/or psychological manifestation of a biochemical imbalance
6. it is a personal choice
7. it is a coerced choice - that is it is a choice influenced or directed by external factors.

(note that the word 'disease' here is the literal definition - that an organism is in a state that differs from its typical condition and some functions are impaired or hindered. pregnancy is a 'disease' as defined in thee terms....)

to one degree or another - all human behavior falls into one or more of these categories. so...why is there homosexuality? :)
bentan

Aug 7 @ 7:19PM  
^^^^ Plaid (sorry not copying original comment due to length) about God making mistakes. Here's a contrary answer to what you might consider obvious (even has an answer to your interpretation of the word "repent"):

http://www.gotquestions.org/does-God-make-mistakes.html

To me it's just more evidence that interpretations abound on the good book. And everyone thinks their particular interpretation is not only definitive, but also happens to fit their particular world-view. I guess it's pretty easy to obey a God who's like a cool mannequin dude who agrees with pretty much anything we choose to do or believe in, and goes along with any clothes we pick out for him.
sundance64

Aug 7 @ 9:33PM  
Thanks guys for a great discussion! It just goes to show that the bible is open to interpretation! Unfortunately, you'd have to go back to the original version, in it's many languages, and probably talk to the original authors...in order to get the original meaning.

sundance64

Aug 7 @ 9:48PM  
Click here to see Canu's response
plaidskirtluver

Aug 7 @ 11:05PM  
bentan, thanks. after i read that i wanted to point out that when the words 'god' and 'perfect' are used together it is most often (if not always) used in terms of 'god's perfect love' i.e. god loves creation...not god is flawless.

in fact the only time jesus addresses 'perfection' he tells people that if you want to be perfect, you need to give away all of your possessions and become a follower. which is to say that 'you are flawed as you currently exist' - and since we are the creation of god according to the bible....god made flawed creatures. and since jesus is the human born form of god....god said so himself. :)


note that i'm not a true scholar of the bible...so i don't have this memorized...if i've made mistakes...you will all need to exercise some 'perfect forgiveness' of your own ;)


bentan

Aug 8 @ 2:34AM  

in fact the only time jesus addresses 'perfection' he tells people that if you want to be perfect, you need to give away all of your possessions and become a follower. which is to say that 'you are flawed as you currently exist' - and since we are the creation of god according to the bible....god made flawed creatures. and since jesus is the human born form of god....god said so himself. :)


note that i'm not a true scholar of the bible...so i don't have this memorized...if i've made mistakes...you will all need to exercise some 'perfect forgiveness' of your own ;)

Thanks Plaid for the interesting points. Admittedly this interpretation of "perfect" is new to me. Jesus does address perfection in another place in Matt 5:48, "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect.". However, the context is with regard to going the extra mile to love your enemies, which would indeed be consistent with what you are saying about perfection pertaining to love.

The question I have though is: isn't it true that the central point of Christianity is that Man is fallen and cannot redeem himself, but the sinless (perfect?) Christ is the sacrificial lamb who would redeem Man from his sins? If Christ/God were flawed wouldn't a crucial precondition for this scheme of salvation be voided?
plaidskirtluver

Aug 8 @ 7:52AM  
ben -

actually,

(ok, this is *me* talking about *my* beliefs)

i believe that jesus was god's attempt to 'put himself in our shoes' so to speak. to understand *why* we kept screwing up. being catholic, i also believe that jesus was the 'last' paschal sacrifice that would forever cement the bond between god and man.

but then again...that's just me :)

Ewe_Wish

Aug 8 @ 8:12AM  
It just goes to show that the bible is open to interpretation!
Its amazing how many people put so much stock in the bible. The bible is supposedly the word of God, but God didn't write it. MAN did. Therefore the bible is what man percieved God was saying.

The bible is full of contradictions and thats further proof it was written by man because if that book was one persons (or God in this case) he would have the same beliefs, not believe this in one book and believe something else in another book.

Each persons faith is different and what is acceptable to one may not be acceptable to another.

I am aware that God gave up free will to make our own decisions, but if didnt accept all sexual orientations why did he create them? did he create us to fail at all he wanted? I dont think so.

great blog Sunny.
bentan

Aug 8 @ 2:50PM  
i believe that jesus was god's attempt to 'put himself in our shoes' so to speak. to understand *why* we kept screwing up. being catholic, i also believe that jesus was the 'last' paschal sacrifice that would forever cement the bond between god and man.

Very interesting perspective .. thanks for sharing.

The bible is full of contradictions and thats further proof it was written by man because if that book was one persons (or God in this case) he would have the same beliefs, not believe this in one book and believe something else in another book.

I'm willing to accept though that if a God exists, he must be so frigging deep that no human could understand him and his ways perfectly. Thus what we see as contradictions might be just his infinite wisdom at work. Quite frankly, if I were to believe in any God, he must be omnipotent and infinitely wise. After all, why believe in someone you can figure out over a cup of coffee?

I am aware that God gave up free will to make our own decisions, but if didnt accept all sexual orientations why did he create them? did he create us to fail at all he wanted? I dont think so.

I think along the same lines we could ask: why did God allow evil to exist? Why did he allow Satan to roam the earth condemning people? I'm thinking perhaps with free will comes the ability for Man to make good and bad choices. But then why have free will and allow people to screw up? Wouldn't it be simpler just to take that away and make us fully compliant and without blemish? It has been variously explained to me that God wants his creations to love and obey him not by force but rather by choice. But then there's that whole big theological question about free will versus predestination (God's foreknowledge of us).
plaidskirtluver

Aug 8 @ 5:36PM  
I think along the same lines we could ask: why did God allow evil to exist?

I'm willing to accept though that if a God exists, he must be so frigging deep that no human could understand him and his ways perfectly. Thus what we see as contradictions might be just his infinite wisdom at work. Quite frankly, if I were to believe in any God, he must be omnipotent and infinitely wise. After all, why believe in someone you can figure out over a cup of coffee

I am aware that God gave up free will to make our own decisions, but if didnt accept all sexual orientations why did he create them? did he create us to fail at all he wanted? I dont think so.

well, i should have gone on to say that i also believe in a 'chaos theory' god. that is god is good. god set everything in motion. god can 'tweak' the design....but you can't always predict the outcome of the modifications. i've had long talks with irish jesuits about these ideas. more often than not - over beer. but suffice it to say that i am happy with my path. not all paths are the same.....and the same path taken by two people may take those two to very different destinations. the only consistent message of the bible is that god loves what has been created and god wants people to show love, compassion and respect to each other...to everyone in fact. if you believe that man has marred the real meaning....perhaps that long running theme is where the real message periodically drifts to the surface....if only for an instant :)

bentan

Aug 8 @ 6:47PM  
well, i should have gone on to say that i also believe in a 'chaos theory' god. that is god is good. god set everything in motion. god can 'tweak' the design....but you can't always predict the outcome of the modifications.

Hmm ...my own understanding of chaos is that the evolution of something's behavior is sensitively dependent on errors in the initial conditions. This does not mean that the behavior is not deterministic. It just means that even a small error in the starting point will lead to a very different outcome. Applying this to God, my own "shopping list" of attributes for God would include the attribute that he has infinite precision and knowledge to specify the exact initial conditions without any error. Given this, he should be able to integrate forward (whatever unearthly differential equation he uses) with infinite precision and predict with perfect certainty a given outcome. I strongly suspect though you will respond with quantum physics and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle ... lol. I would then respond, admittedly rather lamely, that perhaps the user-mode physical world we are allowed to see is not the same admin-mode one that God works in.
plaidskirtluver

Aug 8 @ 7:33PM  
well, i'll spare you heisenberg ;) LOL

errors in the mix really isn't chaos theory, though. many define it that way...but errors imply...well, error...and, well a butterfly isn't an error ;)

chaos, in the most basic form, says that when you have a system that self-interacts, you cannot predict how the outcomes of the outcomes will affect the results (especially when you have billions upon billions of outcomes preceding every moment). what you can do is determine paths that are 'more likely' to result in a desired outcome. you can determine tipping points where you know things will go 'out of control' (e.g. pushing past a point where the result quickly achieves a non-desired outcome) and you can determine 'zones of stability' where most 'outcomes of outcomes' cannot change the state. if you had infinite time, you could solve these problems...for one moment of that infinity :) LOL. so...

imagine:
making space. well, making the phycial laws that govern it, anyway.
then you make some dark matter strings to create eddies.
then you detonate the big bang.
the waves propagate and (eventually) strike your strings.
the resulting eddies are inherently predictable in size and scope, but not in specifics of 'this fundemental particle of this atom swirls counterclockwise at an initial rate of xxx radians per sec. at a radius of yyy light years and has a coupled moment of its own that spins some certain way and as matter and energy continue to blow by it, it is accelerated thusly.....

*why* would a creator or designer choose to spend the time with *every* action reaction that would ever and will ever occur.

predict the basics. understand the direction that the system will take. understand where it wil eventually go. let it happen. :) that's the theory :)
bentan

Aug 8 @ 8:23PM  
Don't totally understand what you just said but it sounds like you are saying that an exceedingly high-dimensional system with a huge number of variables cannot be accurately predicted and a statistical approach e.g. maximum likelihood, is needed in practice. Which is of course true for Man and his finite-precision machines. I'm not sure it would or should be difficult for an omnipotent and omniscient God (matter of belief I guess). Anyway, isn't chaos exhibited in systems with exceedingly simple update rules e.g. the logistic map and the Lorenz equations? Even in these very low-dimensional dynamical systems chaos (in the sense of sensitivity to initial conditions I defined) is evident. Also by "tipping points" do you mean places where the solutions bifurcate?
plaidskirtluver

Aug 8 @ 9:11PM  
well, bifurcation is the simplest form. :)

and what i am saying is that even if you were omnipotent....you could predict what would happen from one moment to the next....given near-infinite time to do so. :) but to predict from that moment (the assumed singularity at t=0) to the next t=.00000000000001 seconds. to the next t=.000000000000011seconds - would take you more time. and more and more.....and 15 billion years later....you've spent, what, like infinity? :) what i am saying is that even an omnipotent being would fall behind the curve :)

bentan

Aug 9 @ 12:18AM  
Understood. Basically you are saying God cannot make infinitely small time-steps in integrating a system forward and must therefore make approximation errors. I can't argue with that because that's where our assumptions would differ. I'm assuming God, if such a being exists, must be capable of infinite precision, kinda like a super-Turing machine. This is of course not realizable within our known physical universe but who knows, maybe it is possible in God's reality. There is after all no reason to suppose that God, if he exists, should be bounded by the physical laws he created.

Great discussion Plaid, I think I have quite a good understanding about your position on the nature of God. Thanks again for your explanations.
plaidskirtluver

Aug 9 @ 9:45AM  
no problem :)

i have fun discussing topics that have no obvious 'correct' answer. plus, it's always fun to mix philosophy and math ;)

/have fun.
sundance64

Aug 9 @ 10:44AM  
But what about the original question? Is homosexuality a sin, and can someone who is homosexual (or a lesbian) be a christian?

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